Answering an Atheist

A friend of Living Word recently took up a challenge on web site operated by a guy named P. Z. Meyers. He's a mean guy. I'll leave it at that. But Taylor wrote a reply that got on his site. He did well. I've not given you the link because some of the content is REALLY objectionable. But this is a good example of a job well done. I've reprinted Taylor's article, Meyers' intro, and Meyer's followup. You don't have to be an expert in apologetics, but you need to be able to find the errors in Meyers' reasoning. I'll follow this up, but comment below with questions and comments and insights.

 

(Want a chew toy? I’ve had a number of submissions to the “Why I am an atheist” series from Christians trying to play the apologetics game. Most of them are embarrassingly illiterate and incoherent, and I just throw them away; this one is at least competently written, even if the ideas are nonsense cribbed from William Lane Craig. Have fun tearing them up.)

Hi PZ, I know this isn’t exactly what you called for, and you probably won’t post this on your famous blog (understandably), but I feel quite strongly that I have two very good reasons for being a Christian:

1) Existence
2) The Uniqueness of Christianity

Now I’ll elaborate a little:

1) The universe exists. Disregarding modern philosophy for a minute, I think this one is fairly obvious. As far as I can know anything, I know that the universe exists. That means it had to have a beginning. Now, the existence and order of the universe may or may not be explained by the Big Bang (I’m no theoretical physicist), but it seems to me that the Big Bang still needs a Big Banger. Someone or something to start the whole thing off. Multiverse theory? I think it still needs some work. And evidence. An eternal Universe? Ok, but I think there are some problems with assigning non-material properties (namely eternal existence) to material things (namely matter). I’ll come back to that. But for now, I’m at the point where I admit that there has to be a beginning, an “uncaused cause” as the philosopher’s put it.

2) That “uncaused cause,” that “Big Banger,” the being that caused everything else to exist, must be the God of the Christian Bible. Why? Because of Christianity’s uniqueness. Say what you will, but after years of studying world religions, Christianity is entirely unique. To oversimplify my case: Every other religion requires an action (service, certain words or actions, good works, etc.), in return for a reward. Christianity is the exact opposite. You are called by Christ first, saved from yourself (that’s the reward), and then the good works flow out of gratitude, or a desire to be more like God. You don’t have to do good works to be saved. Can you see how this is unique?

Now, as to the point about assigning eternal properties to material objects, I don’t see how this is beneficial. Christianity says God created the universe, and He is eternal, intelligent, and caring. Atheism says that the universe created itself, and it is eternal, unintelligent, and uncaring. Is that really better? Personally, I can’t believe that this universe is unintelligent, nor that all of the pain and suffering I see is purposeless.

It seems pretty straightforward to me, but I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

God bless, and stay warm up there,

Taylor
United States

(My response: #1 is meaningless. Physics has evidence that our universe had a beginning, but there is absolutely no reason to suppose a cosmic benign intelligence was behind it. An avalanche also has a beginning, but we don’t assume it was a little man triggering it by intent. #2 is absolutely the dumbest reason I’ve ever heard (and I’ve heard it many times) for believing Christianity is true. Here, I’ve just invented a religion: you achieve salvation by hopping precisely three times on one leg every morning. If you forget and die unhopped, you go to hell; so long as you have hopped, you are forgiven and go to heaven. That’s entirely unique, but it doesn’t make it true — in this case, and in Christianity’s case, it’s just stupid.

Now compare this Christian entry, selected as the best of the religious submissions so far, to the atheist submissions, which were chosen entirely at random.)

Anonymous

Hey Wade, Thought I would get the ball rolling with the comments section of this post. I see a couple errors with Meyer's reasoning Concerning his response to #1 - First, he is stating as a fact what is really his belief - "there is absolutely no reason to suppose a cosmic benign intelligence was behind it." Of course we have reason - Scripture & creation itself speaks volumes about an intelligent Creator - Meyer's simply refuses to believe both. To get him to believe either is highly unlikely. In an effort to reason with Meyers (or other athiests), we must not leave the solid ground we already have (Scripture) to search for a "neutral" ground ("scientific fact"). Second, Meyers is comparing the universe and its beginning to an avalanche and its beginning. It's like comparing apples and oranges - doesn't work. Meyers is making a case that because one thing's beginning is not caused by intelligent intent, creation's beginning could not have been by intelligent intent. Concerning his response to #2 - Meyers has not actually created a unique religion. He has, in fact, exactly illustrated Taylor's point - all manmade religions are similar in that they are works-based for some sort of reward. Though unique as a specific work for salvation, hopping three times on one leg every morning is a work nonetheless. Meyers once again makes a statement of belief (presented as a statement of fact) that Christianity is like his created religion. He is comparing two very non-similar things. Looking forward to your follow-up, Wade! Keep looking to Christ, the cornerstone of our faith! Hans

Pastor Wade

Hans Tanner wanted to reply with this: Hey Wade,   Thought I would get the ball rolling with the comments section of this post.     I see a couple errors with Meyer's reasoning   Concerning his response to #1 - First, he is stating as a fact what is really his belief - "there is absolutely no reason to suppose a cosmic benign intelligence was behind it."  Of course we have reason - Scripture & creation itself speaks volumes about an intelligent Creator - Meyer's simply refuses to believe both.  To get him to believe either is highly unlikely.  In an effort to reason with Meyers (or other athiests), we must not leave the solid ground we already have (Scripture) to search for a "neutral" ground ("scientific fact").  Second, Meyers is comparing the universe and its beginning to an avalanche and its beginning.  It's like comparing apples and oranges - doesn't work.  Meyers is making a case that because one thing's beginning is not caused by intelligent intent, creation's beginning could not have been by intelligent intent.     Concerning his response to #2 - Meyers has not actually created a unique religion.  He has, in fact, exactly illustrated Taylor's point - all manmade religions are similar in that they are works-based for some sort of reward.  Though unique as a specific work for salvation, hopping three times on one leg every morning is a work nonetheless.  Meyers once again makes a statement of belief (presented as a statement of fact) that Christianity is like his created religion.  He is comparing two very non-similar things.   Looking forward to your follow-up, Wade!    Keep looking to Christ, the cornerstone of our faith!

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